http://talklaw.co.nz/comment/index BangTheTable.com - Providing the community and government with a new way to engage in public policy debate http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse tenchinage said "Kevin, please stop quoting L Ron Hubbard. The statements are not backed with any evidence therefore they lack credibility. In addition, people are trying to debate the issues intelligently here, and seeing comment after comment repeating the same unverified propaganda, without ever seeing what YOU think instead of what Mr Hubbard says, is frustrating for those of us who study the issues, and adds nothing of value to the discussion." 2010-03-18 18:30:48 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse BLiP said ""openly available to the people of Earth" . . . only on Earth? " 2010-03-18 18:22:07 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse BLiP said "It is essentially about the question "would it work". Can you cite any, how about just one, verifiable confirmation of your statement? No. You can't. I know. I've looked. " 2010-03-18 17:08:40 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse BLiP said "Despite its name, $cientology cannot produce any scientific results to back up its claims in relation to Narcanon. The only reliable research I have seen indicates that Narcanon has the same effectiveness as if the addict did nothing." 2010-03-18 17:06:12 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse BLiP said "Your attacks on psychiatry are the words of . . . " 2010-03-18 16:59:53 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse BLiP said "$cientology trying to get is grasping hand on even more tax pay money. " 2010-03-18 16:54:07 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse BLiP said "More $cientology clap trap!!" 2010-03-18 16:50:32 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse Oxman said "Is that a second chance at life?? Im sure most people would be rehabilitated in heart beat knowing that the other options available are the death sentence or spending life in a dirty Indonesian prison. As with any change in ones life, Change comes within, not externally. Rehab and pyschotherapy does not work on 99% of people and the recidivism rate surely is under reported. " 2010-03-18 15:58:08 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse ferrouswheel said "You say "drugs" but you don't say which ones. Sweeping generalisations about "drugs" are what continues to make it impossible to have a sane discussion about them. "Drugs" are not all the same." 2010-03-18 10:25:10 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse tenchinage said "Would you care to produce some verifiable evidence to back your claims? I have no particular beef with Narconon, I have heard of it but knew little, so I googled 'Narconon success rate'. The very first link was interesting reading. It would appear that Narconon is reluctant to open its programmes to peer review, that little evidence is available to back the claim of ~70% success rate, and that when studies have been done on individuals who have participated in Narconon programmes, the results have yielded a success figure considerably lower than other rehab programmes available today. Additionally, it would seem Narconon programmes are very expensive, the Russian programme having been expensive enough to draw complaints and warrant an investigation. Other links tell similar stories. There were also several links supporting Narconon (I only looked at the first page), unfortunately all of them led to Narconon-owned sites and I could not find reference material on those sites which I could use to verify the claims being made by you. While most of us here are debating because we have an interest in drugs from one perspective or another, I believe that evidence-based policy is something we are all striving for. Certainly it would be irresponsible to instigate policy and programmes that are not open to fact-checking, peer review and criticism. I can understand why New Zealand would not be keen to introduce a programme nationwide without knowing exactly how successful it has been in other countries, verified by independent studies and hard evidence of drug-free people. I can also see why people might be suspicious of the claims you are making - unfortunately, not citing sources undermines credibility. If hard, verifiable evidence of the success of Narconon is available, please point me (and others) to it. " 2010-03-17 20:54:33 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse tenchinage said "The theory of marijuana as a gateway drug is outdated and disproven. http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=gateway+drug+theory+disproved&meta=&cts=1268810741141&aq=0&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=gateway+drug+theory&gs_rfai=" 2010-03-17 20:27:54 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse tenchinage said "Kevin, it was you who said, and I quote: "Why would one want to alter his mind, if it was in good working order." It was your statement I was referring to, and your argument I was pointing out the flaws in. The article you linked appears to be an opinion piece, and does not cite the sources for its argument, therefore it is difficult to give it any credibility. " 2010-03-17 20:18:23 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse tenchinage said "I agree that if people with drug issues are imprisoned then they should be offered real and effective drug treatment programs while incarcerated. I also think people exiting the prison system or drug rehabilitation should be offered support with the issues that led to imprisonment or drug problems in the first place. You say drugs and crime go hand in hand - while there is correlation, there is no direct causal link between drugs and crime and it would be remiss to discuss these issues without adding the major factor that has been found to contribute to both drug misuse and crime - poverty. Addressing the poverty that pervades the lives of people in our prisons and treatment programs is beyond the scope of this review, however it is unrealistic to expect 'rehabilitated citizens to go out and be productive in the community' without also considering the barriers these people face to doing exactly that, through having been labelled deviant by the criminal justice system. I am not sure how it's possible to rehabilitate morals, and I think here we get to the core of the problem with the drug debate - there are those who believe that deliberately ingesting a chemical with the express purpose of altering one's mindstate is morally wrong, and there are people who believe it is morally right. I have yet to see a convincing argument for why drug use is morally wrong. I have seen plenty for why drug misuse can be harmful, and the debate MUST be framed in evidence rather than moral judgement in order to best serve the needs of the people." 2010-03-17 20:06:45 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/should-there-be-alternatives-to-prosecution-where-possession-of-drugs-is-for-personal-use tenchinage said "Please provide evidence that LSD is more likely to negatively affect a user or cause them to do something harmful to someone else." 2010-03-17 19:47:35 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/should-there-be-alternatives-to-prosecution-where-possession-of-drugs-is-for-personal-use Puff the Magic Dragon said "Personally, as a tax payer, it makes me cringe that my taxes conrtibute for the hunt to prosecute for possesion and use of cannabis.. when it is a product of mother nature. P, MDMA, LSD etc are understandably illegal as it is man made and potentially very harmful. What is the most you can do when your high? I'll tell you, I'd know, I love to smoke the reefer. I relax, I contemplate, I laugh, I joke, I smile, I'm carefree, I bear no animosity and life is choice! As a drinker also, I can tell you that alcohol is not even remotely the same effect. Some get aggressive, get into sticky situations, break the law doing ideas which seem clever at the time, get into a fight, get emotional, wear some serious beer goggles and wake with the want to chew off you arm the following day...its a poison, and user's are not completely coherant or able to weigh out the consequences for their actions. There's no way one could do that when they're stoned...you just don't have it in you..but due to greed and the Government having absolutely no control or cut of the money exchange, it simply can't be legal (despite the medical attributes it has.) Some of the most successful people in society smoke weed and if only they would second the notiton of legalising marijuana; this would be much more apparent. However, due to consequences of speaking out, no one dare, not when it is illegal and therefore harming one's professional reputation. If legalised, the pro's could be endless; -More shops (cosmic corner etc) Good for economy -500million dollars additional annually to subsidise or grants for important causes such as Cancer Research or Education Funding (As Canna-med stated) -Copious amounts of MORE police avaliable for important issues such as domestic violence, drink driving and child abuse cases -Medicinal Pro's -Less desirability-teens love living by their own rules -Less fights, the hippies who smoked weed were all about peace not war and grooovy vibes as I do. How is Amsterdam a functional city if cannabis was so outright preposterous?! Appears as though there isn't enough information to back up the argument on why Marijuana is unacceptable. Which makes the law that much harder to comprehend. Kylee " 2010-03-16 00:28:12 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/are-any-problems-with-the-act-the-result-of-the-act-itself-or-rather-of-the-way-it-is-understood-and-applied Nat said "As an employer, an issue of enduring concern for me is that the Office of the Privacy Commissioner charges fees to educate the public about its own Act! To attend one of its regular 3.5 hour-long hour "Introduction to the Privacy Act" workshops, the Commission charges $170 per person. Departments like the IRD and Ministry of Economic Development never charge employers to attend seminars intended to ensure compliance with NZ laws. Why is the Privacy Commissioner, who is already funded from my taxes, allowed to charge in this way? Because of this $170 fee I will not send any of my staff to the Privacy Commissioner's workshop. Instead I give them a copy of the Act to read at their desk. If the Privacy Commissioner is genuine in wanting employers and employees to be as fully informed as possible about their obligations under the Privacy Act, they will end the practice of charging the public for this information. I look forward to reading a response to my question, on this forum, from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner." 2010-03-13 09:34:55 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/should-there-be-alternatives-to-prosecution-where-possession-of-drugs-is-for-personal-use dwest said "we got rid of slavery,got womens suffrage sorted,got homosexual law reform sorted ,this is no different.Everytime rational non bigoted people want to move the social agenda forward ; the hard-nosed, uninformed,ideologically driven conservative fools will fight tooth & nail to obstruct positive change.For how many more decades & ruined lives are we going to pander to the UN treaties with their roots deeply embedded in fear ,bigotry & racism .Anslinger presided over the 1961 treaty & Nixon over the 1973 one - fantastic role models to base our ethical underpinnings on. Justice!!! Yeah right. " 2010-03-11 17:33:57 +1300