http://talklaw.co.nz/comment/index BangTheTable.com - Providing the community and government with a new way to engage in public policy debate http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/should-there-be-alternatives-to-prosecution-where-possession-of-drugs-is-for-personal-use dwest said "we got rid of slavery,got womens suffrage sorted,got homosexual law reform sorted ,this is no different.Everytime rational non bigoted people want to move the social agenda forward ; the hard-nosed, uninformed,ideologically driven conservative fools will fight tooth & nail to obstruct positive change.For how many more decades & ruined lives are we going to pander to the UN treaties with their roots deeply embedded in fear ,bigotry & racism .Anslinger presided over the 1961 treaty & Nixon over the 1973 one - fantastic role models to base our ethical underpinnings on. Justice!!! Yeah right. " 2010-03-11 17:33:57 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/should-there-be-alternatives-to-prosecution-where-possession-of-drugs-is-for-personal-use canna-med said "1) To Quote the BERL NZ Drug harm index the prohibition of Cannabis is costing New Zealand society close to 500 Million dollars a year surely an appoach that turns this negitive into a positive is to be welcomed by all concerned. Americans alone spend some $113 billion dollars annually to consume an estimated 31.1 million pounds of pot. By criminalizing this market, the studies estimate that the U.S government loses more than $30 billion per year in tax revenue. 2) Explosives ? To use explosives in NZ requires attending a day course and a payment of $400 dollars and is not restricted to engineers and miners. I would think that the kind of approach that we have to explosives, maybe a better way to deal with the prohibition of Cannabis.Which is safer Blown away or Blown up? Cannabis deaths per year 0 Alcohol 1000+ per year...... Tobacco 5000+ per year nows thats a epidemic problem. 3) How could you even write something like this without seeing how silly it is? The U.S has been selling FDA-approved concentrated marijuana pills for almost 25 years, then there's really no question how "safe and effective" THC is. The fact that pills made of pure THC have been approved by FDA and sold legally for decades without incident is some of the best proof you could ask for that marijuana is remarkably safe. It should be also stated that the U.S Gov also holds u.s patent 6630507 I would google this if I was you as, learning something new is not be a bad thing. The American College of Physicians, the second-largest doctors group in the United States and the list below only shows a few medical groups and not just advocates as you put it, who have come out arould the world to advocate using medical cannabis. American Academy of Family Physicians , American Cancer Society American Medical Association (AMA) ,American Medical Student Association American Preventive Medical Association, American Public Health Association American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM British Medical Association California Academy of Family Physicians ,California Medical Association (CMA) California Nurses Association ,Federation of American Scientists Florida Medical Association French Ministry of Health Health Canada Life Extension Foundation ,Lymphoma Foundation of America Marin (California) Medical Society ,National Institutes of Health (NIH) National Nurses Society on Addictions ,New England Journal of Medicine. " 2010-03-10 01:51:43 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/should-there-be-alternatives-to-prosecution-where-possession-of-drugs-is-for-personal-use Legalize It said "I partially agree with this. This would work great with the minor drugs like Cannabis but I still feel that we need to stop the use of more powerful drugs such as P and LSD due to them being more likely to negatively effect the user or the user to do something harmful to anyone else." 2010-03-09 22:18:19 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/should-there-be-alternatives-to-prosecution-where-possession-of-drugs-is-for-personal-use Asmodeus said "The way stoner culture exists in New Zealand I would expect stores/cafe`s which sell cannibis to appear. There are already stores who would fit the description (Cosmic corner, the hemp store ect.) Hell if they legalise it I'll start one. " 2010-03-09 13:58:26 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/should-there-be-alternatives-to-prosecution-where-possession-of-drugs-is-for-personal-use sman1 said "To comment on a number of objections the current law 1) that profits should be converted to public coffers. This argument is illegitimate a similar argument could be made for people smuggling. Potential profits is not and should never be a means for criminal legislation. 2) people can handle themselves - not all users are hurting themselves. Ignoring medical evidence that links psychiatric conditions with extended cannabis use, take a similar argument with explosives. The majority of current professionals using explosives do not hurt anyone (engineers, miners). If cannabis can be used with out personal harm by some (and I'm not certain evidence supports this) why should it be legal to all. Explosive legal to all would cause epidemic problems. 3) These people medicate this way, why cant we medicate this way (Hair Loss = Propecia, Mental Health = Seroquel, etc) Medicating for known medical conditions (ie medicating depression in its clinical sense is not the same as treating sad people) if entirely different than self medication for perceived medical/emotional ailments. And quite frankly the suitability of cannabis as a medication is an argument for physicians not advocates" 2010-03-09 13:54:12 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/should-there-be-alternatives-to-prosecution-where-possession-of-drugs-is-for-personal-use Asmodeus said "Exactly! Personally I think laws in general regarding the way people behave should be based on moral and ethical groundings. Murder is morally bad, drink driving (endangering the lives of others) is morally bad and consequently illigal. Smoking cannibis harms no-one and has no negative moral or ethical consequences to speek of. Any that could be argued (funding gang activity ect.) are consequences of cannibis being illigal not consequences of cannibis itself. I think the current law is un-ethical and ultimatly causes harm. I encourage anyone who feels similar to write a submission to the law commission (this forum doesn't count as one) We are not criminals" 2010-03-09 13:54:07 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/should-there-be-alternatives-to-prosecution-where-possession-of-drugs-is-for-personal-use Asmodeus said "The stats i've seen show the netherlands with a use rate of 6%. New Zealand I've seen from 14.6 to 26%. In California and netherlands youth rates dropped. I'd love to know how much money is made out of canni-tourism, it could seriously be considered as a viable economy in NZ" 2010-03-09 13:44:11 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse Iatrogenic Doctor said "I support Narconon and resent your reference "quack" and find it offensive and defamatory. Read the rules of this forum. Narconon is currently the largest drug detoxification program existing in the world and gets more people free of drugs than any other organization on the planet." 2010-03-09 07:53:30 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse Iatrogenic Doctor said "There are some good points you have made ere; clearly alcohol is equally or more damaging to the human organism than marijuanna as the alcohol corrodes the liver and body. In Russia where alcohol is a predominant problem (more so than drugs) the average lifespan for a man is 59 years and this is due largely to the huge alcohol consumption. In saying this I in no way support marijuanna at all; it is a mind-altering drug that destroys motivation and leads on to heavier drugs. You are correct; the media, who will ALWAYS claim no-blame, are significantly responsible for the popularity and promotion of drug culture. One major point that is missed (not observed) to date by anyone that I know of is that when reporting "drug busts" or in fact any reports on drugs it is ALWAYS stated "the drugs had a street value of XXXXX" (Replace the Xs with a dollar value) This in actual fact should be against the law for any media. In reality any street drugs have NO financial value as they are illegal. The media actually by reporting value are essentially establishing the market rate. This is insane! Hence I say that it should be illegal to report on public media and "value" of illegal drugs. By so reporting the media source is essentially placing its bid." 2010-03-08 21:50:31 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse Iatrogenic Doctor said "Keep in mind that most media get most of their revenue from drug companies anyway so they have a vested interest in promoting drugs." 2010-03-08 21:17:13 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse Iatrogenic Doctor said "Believe me $105 million is OVER funding! The problem is that for so long middle-class solid citizens have been milking the system with their govt-funded salaries to pay mortgage and car repayments while delivering a system that is highly ineffective to put it nicely. The solution is to make prisons a rehabilitation system both morally and in terms of drug detox. Crime and drugs go hand in hand so prisons need to be exactly that; a rehabilitation center that will have a product of rehabilitated citizens who can then go out and be productive in the community. This is in contrast to the existing system that does not even have a definable product...except that of "they have done their time." Since they do not have a definable product of course there is no responsibility to achieve anything other than keep the confined citizens off the street and out of circulation. " 2010-03-08 20:18:19 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse Iatrogenic Doctor said "I would be the first to agree IF we had a sane society, however the damage has already been done by psychiatric drugs dumbing people down and illegal drugs already pervasive. To remove the laws now would be disastrous. What is needed is moral education ( http://www.thewaytohappiness.org/ ) in schools and throughout the communities to begin. Also needed would be a criminal rehabilitation program as recommended by Kevin Owen (Crimanon) which also deals with drug detox. Rather than build more prisons, make the present prison system effective by putting Crimanon through the prison system as has been done in Indonesia. " 2010-03-08 20:06:49 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse Iatrogenic Doctor said "Promoting safe drug use such as teaching children how to use drugs "safely" is a contradiction in terms. Likewise programs that attempt to get a person off one drug by getting them on to another (such as methadone) is equally unworkable. My username is Iatrogenic Doctor (iatrogenic: illness caused by doctor mistake/ doctor of) as my purpose is to remedy the fact that over 8000 New Zealand citizens die every year due to the mistakes of doctors (conveniently labelled and hidden from public eye as "iatrogenic disease") This is more than die by smoking every year...and I only know that because of the current advert stating that only 5000 NZers die every year by smoking...evidently considered more important than correcting the doctors. Frequently those mistakes include mis-prescription and over-prescription of drugs. Having spent 2 1/2 years directly putting in place what is now one of the largest drug detoxification programs in the world I consider I have the knowledge and credentials to give an opinion. I am also a third generation New Zealand citizen. For those wondering, the program I put into action exists every day now in almost every major city in Russia, the largest continent internationally. Every day Russians are getting off drugs and alcohol as a result of the program. It is not a question of does this work; it has been proven time and time again. The program uses the technology developed by L Ron Hubbard and already vindicated by many distinguished Doctors the world over. Yet it is interesting that this program is not only not used in New Zealand, but ignored while unworkable programs are held in place by the selfishness for reasons of self-importance or financial gain by certain (un-named here) persons holding positions of responsibility. This enforced status-quo will not last. Most of these people are drug-users themselves and will die before their time by the very drugs they protect. Kevin Owen; I take my hat off to you for your relentless perseverance at informing the public at large of the drug rehabilitation technology and education resources L Ron Hubbard has made openly available to the people of Earth. The drug education booklets published based on this technology are currently the only concise, accurate and informative education booklets of any note in New Zealand. The solution exists but is being ignored currently. Given the resources I could easily place this same program into New Zealand and it is not a question of whether it would work; the essential problem is how many people would try to prevent it for the reasons as given above." 2010-03-07 22:30:56 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse Iatrogenic Doctor said "While drugs should never have been a legal issue in the first place (it is actually a moral issue; morals being directed toward the survival and continuation of a society) nevertheless they have been made a legal issue. To remove the laws now without additional measures which would guarantee a literate, educated and sane population would be equally irrational. You seem to be inferring "safe drug use" which is already in existence could be workable, yet it will never work. That is somewhat like giving a suicidal person a blunt razor blade and saying "this is how to do it without killing yourself completely."" 2010-03-07 21:45:34 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse KevinOwen said ""the assumption that any people who use drugs have minds that are not 'in good working order'." It may pay to read the article again as it states that a depressed person in pain will seek drugs to remove his/her sypmtoms. That's when you get a drug addict. Hence the title of the article [Drug Addiction]He/she is not doing it for recreation purposes. "In the absence of workable psychotherapy wide drug addiction is inevitable. When a person is depressed or in pain and where he finds no physical relief from treatment, he will eventually discover for himself that drugs, remove his symptoms. In almost all cases of, psychosomatic pain, malaise or discomfort the person has sought some cure for the upset" " 2010-03-07 21:06:47 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse KevinOwen said ""Which in my opinion is a very good reason to keep people with substance abuse issues out of prisons." It's not that drug rehab in prisons want work, it's the rehab being used that doesn't work. “It is very important to understand one thing about much of the drug rehabilitation field today. Our hope of a cure for drug addiction was not lost. It was buried by an avalanche of psychiatry’s false information and false solutions. Drug addiction is not a disease. Real solutions do exist.”" 2010-03-07 20:44:05 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse KevinOwen said ""Please stop spreading your generalization and lies. This is what gives drugs their bad public perception!" You must be joking. Are we all suppose to keep quite so that we don't give drugs a bad public perception? They do that themselves mate. Haven't you seen the news when a mad psyche patient on drugs goes berserk. There was one here in Rotorua recently. He was given a new injection. A week later he gouged his mothers eyes out and beat her to a pulp. They sent him off to the Henry Bennett centre where they put him on more drugs. These drugs had side effects. [heart attacks]. What do you know, he died the next day of a heart attack. Shall I go on." 2010-03-07 20:35:01 +1300 http://talklaw.co.nz/topic/what-else-should-be-done-to-limit-the-problems-and-reduce-the-harm-associated-with-drug-abuse KevinOwen said "True you can only get so far with meditation. About as far as having a good nap. What's the difference between the Mind and the Brain. The Brain is the main part of the nervous system [flesh]. The Mind is the Memory [past thought]It's not composed of cells. Your next question would be to ask what's looking at the mind [memory] and controlling it. It's a bit more complicated than a lump of meat [brain cells].If your up Rotorua way give me a yell and I'll show you how it all works and how to fix it. Cheers Fundamentals Of Thought Forward THIS THIN BOOK is a summation, if brief, of the results of fifty thousand years of thinking men. Their materials, researched and capped by a quarter of a century of original search by L.Ron Hubbard, have bought the humanities, so long outdistanced by the "exact sciences" into a state of equality, if not superiority,to physics, chemistry and mathematics. Mr Hubbard, an American, studied nuclear physics at George Washington University in Washington, DC, before he started his studies about the mind, spirit and life. This explains the mathematical precision of the Scientology Religion. What has been attempted by a thousand universities and foundations, at a cost of billions has been completed quietly here. " 2010-03-07 20:05:52 +1300