Does the level of alcohol-related harm justify a new approach to the law?
Evidence of the nature and level of risk associated with alcohol, particularly for young people, has increased significantly in recent years. This has led to revisions of what constitutes safe drinking.
If a new approach to the law is justified, what would a future drinking culture look like?
The law cannot change a drinking culture. It can only alter the environment in which individuals make choices about alcohol.
New Zealanders need to decide where the balance should lie between the benefits we derive from alcohol, and the harms being experienced by individuals and society at large. In doing so, New Zealanders need to decide whether to make the environment more, or less, supportive of moderation.
Take me to further discussions on the issue of alcohol.
This discussion topic is closed. You can still review the discussion but it will no longer accept comments or votes.
Relates to
document:
Towards a New Framework for Regulating Liquor? (170 KB)
tomc Comment 1
9:04pm, 30 July 2009
8We have licenses to sell alcohol but no licence to purchase. So here is a way out there idea that is likely to be too radical but I wonder what would happen if one had to have a licence to purchase alcohol? If we had this then if a person abused alcohol or committed alcohol related offences then the licence to purchase could be revoked/suspended. I realise this sounds way out there and would create some administrative issues but we have to have licenses for dogs, driving, marriage etc (which arguably cause less harm) so why not for the purchase of alcohol. The rules, taxes etc being proposed create a blanket hit over all consumers and penalise the sensible drinker as much as those who abuse alcohol. It seems to me that we need to target the abusers and in that way encourage responsible behavior. But as I said, the idea is too far out there but most of what is being proposed is more of the same which hasn't worked in teh past.
matt Comment 1.1
2:37pm, 31 July 2009
1tomc, I think this is a really interesting idea. Yes it's radical, but we have a radical problem. A number of individuals have demonstrated, through their behaviour, that they cannot be trusted not to harm themselves and others through their use of alcohol.
This government is unlikely to go for an initiative that will result in more regulation, but it's a shame, because everything else that's being tried hasn't worked, or hasn't worked well enough. We need fresh approaches and I think a purchaser license (which could double as the only acceptable form of age id when purchasing alcohol) and the education process that goes along with that would at least give people a chance to really think about their use of alcohol before they've formed the habits of a lifetime. It would be expensive but you could use the driver licensing infrastructure to manage it rather than having to create something completely independent.
I can predict the objections to this: it's Orwellian, it's an invasion of privacy, it's too intrusive, but frankly, given the oft-cited fact that alcohol qualifies as a Class B drug due to its dangers, I don't think it's unjustified. A visit to Courtenay Place on a Friday night while stone cold sober will convince you of that. It's only an accident of history that alcohol is freely available and other less harmful drugs are illegal: and it's only our international obligations and ties to US interests through international treaties around the supply of drugs that keep things the way they are.
New Zealand's binge drinking culture is one of the world's worst and half-measures aren't going to help us. License it, make it mandatory and make it really hard for people without a drinking license to get hold of alcohol.
Dominique Comment 1.2
4:43pm, 31 July 2009
0He he. This is novel :-)
OK lets say on your 18th birthday you automatically got your license (no test required). The license would be required to purchase alcohol at an off license and to get into an on-license premise. The Police or maybe liquor license holders could take it away when you cause drink-related harm.
Heaps of problems with this. Lets see how the discussion develops!
therunt Comment 1.3
10:34am, 3 August 2009
3Could not agree more tomc
As a bar owner I am at the fore front of the drinking culture we have in New Zealand and like most people feel that alcohol is a contributing factor to a lot of social harm in this country. However it is not the fault of alcohol - it is the fault of the drinker. Most New Zealanders can have a drink or two with their friends - even the occasional 'big night'- without causing any harm whatsoever. For too long in this country we have been making excuses for the trouble makers and dancing around the problem with rules that are not going to change the habits of these people. Less places to buy it - they will find a place. Bars open less time - they will go home and drink. More expensive - kids will go without even more. I could go on but you get my point. We need to make people who drink to excess and cause problems accountable for their own actions and the only way to do that is to make it against the law the be intoxicated.
Here is my suggestion. A DRINKERS LICENCE. Just like a car licence. You need one to purchase alcohol. Period. In bars, clubs, super markets, off licences etc. You have a demirit system on the licence where if you are caught drunk and disorderly 25 points, assualt while intoxicated 50 points, DIC 100 points etc. Soon enough our problem drinkers will be refined to their houses and not out on the town causing the general public grief. Yes they may still drink at home but if the Police are called for disturbance and find people their drinking without a licence - arrest. Make it their problem. Not the problem of bar owners, off licences and the Police in town on a Friday and Saturday night. Right now there are few consequences for the drunk. PLenty for the people selling the alcohol, and the victims of crime casued by intoxicated people but few for the drinkers. Let them be accountable
Judge Comment 1.4
8:32pm, 4 August 2009
0removed by moderator - duplicate posting
Judge Comment 1.5
8:33pm, 4 August 2009
0removed by moderator - duplicate posting
Judge Comment 1.6
8:33pm, 4 August 2009
0I agree! This is something that the reporting agencies who are repsonsable for upholding the Sale of Liquor act have wanted for sometime. It removes the ned for the production of an ID but equally does not punish those 18 year olds who are going to drink properly. It is a more effective way of delaing with recidivist srink driving offenders because in theory they cant get alcohol,(in theory)! It would reduce the need for increased taxes but more importantly will hold the individual people accoutable for their own actions while not absolving any bar or bottle store for their obligations.
The licence of the person would acrue demerit points for minor offending and lead up to disqualification or suspension. It would not solve all of the problems but would go a long way to solving some of them.
I think it potentially is a simple yet extremely effective tool.
ututaonga Comment 1.7
5:04pm, 10 September 2009
0"Nice idea" and thats about all. There is a plethora of false ID's and drivers licences out there already. The ability to produce anything on computer these days is easy for students and others to do. As a Bar and Off Licence omner/operator for the past16 years I am witness to this.As we are targeting under 18's and youth drinking- how about no blood alcohol or zero alcohol tolerance for drivers under 18 and those with restricted licences???
Ultravex Comment 2
3:17pm, 31 July 2009
3The current level of alcohol consumption is causing too many problems and using up too many valuable resources (police/hospitals).
I say this only because I am surrounded by the negative effects of alcohol on a daily basis:
* A manager in my previous job was fond of telling us stories how he would get so drunk he could not recall how he got home (he drove home, he just could not recall it). He happily expounded to everyone how he never got caught by the police. The staff around him use to jeer him on - sick.
* One of my colleagues is away today because she got so drunk last night that she is too sick to come to work today. She is a certified alcoholic (and proud of it). She often does not come to work after drinking too much the night before. She has x2 kids and is married. People support her habit because she has a 'likeable' personality - loads of character.
* A few weeks ago a drunk person crashed through the fence of our house. It was 2.30pm (yes, in the daytime). We were luck enough to be at the other end of the garden. I have a 6 month old baby, and do not want to begin and imagine what might have been if we were in the front yard. the driver fled the scene, luckily the police found him - x2.5 times over the alcohol limit. 9 months suspended license. $1000. I'm sure he will drink to excess to quench the pain of losing all that money.
* Not too long ago my friend's brother assaulted their mother. He was too intoxicated to know any better - he was completely out of it. He apologised the next day, but he lost the respect of his whole family - probably for life.
....I could go on, but you get the idea...
So, does the level of alcohol-related harm justify a new approach to the law? It sure does.
nzarndy Comment 2.1
12:44am, 1 August 2009
0I agree the level of alcohol-related harm justifies a new approach to the law.
Young people need to be made more aware and accountable; my 13 yr old son, who has never touched alcohol before, and has never shown any interest, went on a national representative sports tournament recently and I found out 4 days after the incident, that he had been given alcohol by a 16 yr old that he was rooming with, along with other 16 yr olds, and he actually was intoxicated to the degree that he vommitted. The adults we had signed over care of our son to did not even inform us, we found out 4 days later. (not from them). Alcohol is a subject that we had not yet approached in our house as did not think it was necessary at 13, where our son is involved in sport almost every weekend and doesn't socialise in a drinking environment. However, it is now something that we have to talk about and it is shocking that this has happened at a national rep under 16s tournament. There needs to be support for families such as us, and consequences for those who supply alcohol to minors, in this case, the 16 yr old boy who obtained the alcohol was of course a minor too. But it also shows the peer pressure and the dangers of younger children rooming with those 3 yrs older. This to us is scary stuff, sure, our son should have known better and he must accept the consequences for making a bad choice, but he was trying to 'fit in' and be accepted.
So let's hope the new approach to the law looks at these situations and how the adults whom we entrust our kids to are made more accountable so the kids who are supposed to be playing semifinals the next day are not up drinking alcohol until 12 pm. One of the boys involved was the manager's son and she was of course onsite too!!
Buttercup Comment 2.1.1
7:34pm, 2 August 2009
1Current Alcohol Laws not working.(This is an understatement in the extreme) Need an urgent/Overhaul.
Unfortunately I witnessed fatal alcohol/drug(?) car accident last year.
Unable to be given first aid, as driver very dead, twisted body, chest completely caved in, unable to locate head. Other nearly dead person dripping blood,vomit, nauseating smell of vomit and alcohol. Felt very angry that young men can do this to each other? It was like a war scene. Parents don't bring children into the world, so they can murder each other ?
In our day, 20 was the legal age. It gave us a chance to grow up, not be pressured and preoccupied with alcohol.
Allowed for healthy brain development, frontal lobe seat of judgement, not impaired at an early age. Made better choices, sure there were less pressures, drugs weren't a big issue then. A lot of kids these days are going around with damaged brains. Very very scary for the future !! Must be one of the most unhealthy generations, physically and mentally !!
Government , or lack of governance, - low drinking age, cheap plonk, easy accessiblity, advertising etc etc. All culpable in making NZ land of the Brain Dead and Dead.
Quarter Comment 2.1.2
5:56am, 9 August 2009
2'NZARNDY' - Why had the discussion of alcohol not been brought up with your 13 year old son, when it is so prevalent amongst youth (esp. males)? How was your son to 'know' any 'better' if you had not brought the subject up, and your strong feelings on it?
Surely your son already knows (by his age) about sex, drugs and alcohol (its everywhere in society today). Perhaps no open discussion in families about these 'taboo' subjects is what causes gaps to arise. I certainly know from my youth-hood experiences that silence can be taken as acceptance until something to the contrary is said ('what the olds don't know won't hurt them'...and they obviously don't 'know' as they've never mentioned it).
A lot of teenagers fist experience with drugs will either be through cannabis (which is much more easily available as its not regulated - dealers don't ID) alcohol or tobacco. Parents not talking to their children about these things early on - and their own experiences, can have a detrimental effect on their kids. Especially in regards to the 'devils weed'. The most harmless of the 3, yet in most households the one that is either not mentioned, or done so with the greatest of negative undertones. This can warp a childs whole view of drugs - for they may try it, experience no bad effects, no hangover, no vomiting, and suddenly their whole view on ALL drugs is muddled (in their young minds). They may then be compelled to try something really bad when the dealer gives them a little 'taste' of something else for free. Because we continue to follow a failed prohibition campaign, it means that the only answer can be 'no', and that is usually all that is said.
Back to alcohol, its the same thing. An honest discussion, early on, on the good aspects and bad of all drugs can go a long way. If the parents haven't had much experience - then say that. There are no good or bad drugs, just good or bad relationships with drugs...and that's where the license to purchase might be a good way to go about things. (They do the same with cannabis dispensaries in LA)
Eric Crampton Comment 3
9:37am, 4 August 2009
3I'm an economist at the University of Canterbury who's done a bit of work looking at the social costs of alcohol. I've found that they have been grossly overstated. If policy really should worry about the harms that drinkers impose on other people - whether through crime or costs on the health system - those costs roughly approximate what drinkers pay in alcohol excise taxes. If your interested, my report is <a href="http://www.econ.canterbury.ac.nz/RePEc/cbt/econwp/0910.pdf">here</a> but should be read in conjunction with an addendum/erratum located <a href="http://www.econ.canterbury.ac.nz/personal_pages/eric_crampton/Reply.pdf">here</a>.
I'm also more than a little worried about how the Law Commission has handled some of the relevant literature in its report. I've started blogging on it <a href="http://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com">here</a> and will continue doing so as I work my way through the report. Look for posts with the tags "Law Commission", alcohol, and BERL.
Having looked at the literature on the costs, I have a hard time seeing that there's much basis for increased tax if the point of the tax is to reduce the harm that drinkers impose on others: as real as those harms are, the current tax rate seems about right for matching them.
If a tax increase or other regulatory measure is meant to prevent the harms that heavy drinkers impose upon themselves, we'd really need to have some proper economic analysis looking at the costs to moderate drinkers of such a move. Moderate drinkers are roughly twice as sensitive to price as are heavy drinkers, so any tax increase will induce moderate drinkers to cut their drinking by more than will heavy drinkers. So we have to be very careful with any tax increase: the costs to moderate drinkers can easily outweigh the benefits to harmful drinkers. Nobody has conducted an analysis to date comparing the harms that would be imposed on moderate drinkers with the benefits to harmful drinkers; there's no way we can tell that a tax increase wouldn't do more harm than good without such an analysis.
Dominique Comment 3.1
2:08pm, 7 August 2009
1I agree that a more comprehensive cost benefit analysis should be undertaken by the Law Commission. This may come as proposals develop. The Commission should list the social, cultutal, environmental, political and economic costs and benefits of problem drinking and the options to reduce it.
I disagree with Mr Crampton that the focus should be on an economic cost benefit analysis, but I do agree that this should be part of the product.
Mr Crampton's analysis would not adequately consider how the social and cultural costs and benefits of a reduction in problem drinking would weigh against the economic costs.
I agree with Mr Crampton that tax incentives could target the wrong people, but I also understand that this could be one measure of a wider package of reforms.
Eric Crampton Comment 3.1.1
9:58am, 24 August 2009
1The LC relied initially fairly heavily on BERL's report showing large "social costs" of alcohol, or at least it was highly influential in Sir Geoffrey's early speech. We have shown that number to be astronomically inflated as compared to a normal economic measure of external costs.
Of course, there could be other reasons for regulating. Straight paternalism, for one. I just get tetchy when folks claim that there's an economic case for doing something when there really isn't. I'll take an honest paternalism over an inflated economic cost report any day.
M Andrews Comment 3.2
7:06am, 20 August 2009
3You appear to differ in your conclusions from BERL, Brian Easton and many others. WHO published meta analyses on the issue of price conclude that increases in price have a direct impact on reducing alcohol related harm - and that price increases tend to impact on young and heavy drinkers more than older and moderate drinkers (see Babor et al, Edwards et al etc).
The aim of tax is not always just to offset the tangible costs, but to try and reduce the intangible costs as well. Have you taken into account intangible costs? These do appear to make up a significant chunk of the costs - and as these have a direct impact on people's well being they need to be included.
Eric Crampton Comment 3.2.1
9:50am, 24 August 2009
0- I disagree with the WHO method authored by Single, Easton, Collins, Lapsley et al. BERL largely followed their method, though with some errors. You're not citing independent folks who disagree with me here: they're all part of the same group.
- I can buy that if you only care about the harms that heavy drinkers incur from heavy drinking and don't care about the harms that high tax rates impose on moderate drinkers, then increased taxes reduce the harms you care about.
- I cannot buy that prices have bigger effects on heavy drinkers. See <a href="http://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com/2009/07/and-further-on-price-elasticity.html">here</a> where I provide nice links to actual economic studies of relative price elasticities.
- The BERL report we criticize includes lots of intangible costs. We mostly leave intangible costs alone but designate most of them as being internal rather than external.
Andreas T Comment 4
9:34pm, 11 August 2009
4"Does the level of alcohol-related harm justify a new approach to the law?"
Yes, absolutely. I believe there is a social problem that needs to be dealt with. But not by raising the purchase age.
This comes from a document I have been preparing and hoping to get support for. You thoughts would be appreciated.
You can also view the whole (tidier) document here:
https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dhhtgzwh_238cbk36cs&hl=en
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2. Why raising the purchase age is unfair
2.1 Indirect targeting - Penalising one group for another group's problems
As proponents have stated, the main purpose of raising the purchase age is to try and change the ‘de facto’ drinking age; it is 12-17 year olds who are the main targets of the bill and not 18 and 19 year olds. This is, in our opinion, morally reprehensible. If the problem is that under 18 year olds are drinking irresponsibly then the solution should target and effect this group without punishing and impinging upon the rights, of another group. Should we stop giving pain medication to sick patients because another group of people are stealing and abusing the drugs?
2.2 Blanket punishment - Penalising a majority for the problems of a minority
Obviously and statistically, there are a majority of 18 and 19 year olds, and indeed under-age drinkers, who do drink responsibly[1]; the problem is within a minority. To unfairly punish and restrict the majority for the misdemeanours of the minority is wrong. Should we stop all tourists from travelling internationally because some people abuse travel and traffic drugs?
2.3 Age discrimination - Punishing some and leaving others unpunished
Statistically, under-age drinkers, and indeed even under 20 year olds, are not the sole cause of alcohol harm; in fact over 18 years are binge drinking slightly more (and that's with adding two standard drinks to what constitutes binge drinking)[1]. Raising the purchase age is therefore blatant and unfair age discrimination. Should we ban everyone over the age of 60 from driving, just beacuse as with all age groups, they have some problems with drinking responsibly?
2.4 Conclusion
While restricting the rights groups is consistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 so long as "...such reasonable limits prescribed by law... can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."[2], we do not see how attacking one group for another groups problems, how attacking a majority for the problems of a minority, and how not punishing other age groups causing similar harms, is either demonstrably justifiable or ethical. We find the idea of unnecessary use of indirect targeting, blanket punishment, and age discrimination morally reprehensible.
3. Why raising the drinking age won’t work
3.1 Parents supply most of the alcohol
Most (62%) under 18 year olds get their alcohol from parents[1]. This number is likely to increase with an increase in the purchase age. As ALAC (the Alcohol and Liquor Advisory Council of New Zealand) pointed out in their submission on the 2005 attempt to raise the purchase age, "It is more likely that increasing the minimum legal purchase age and not tightening the approach to the sale and supply of alcohol will have a negative influence by... encouraging more adults/parents to start supplying or continue to supply because they view the age restriction as onerous or unfair".[3] Furthermore, as Hon. Simon Power pointed out "... when the police came before that committee they said that in 51% of cases [of under-age drinking] the last drink had been taken at home.".[4]
3.2 Current age laws are not even being properly enforced
9% of under-age drinkers have (illegally) purchased alcohol for themselves.[1] If current liquor laws, which have been around for many years, are not being enforced and are ineffective, then how likely is it that new liquor laws will be? If we are serious about reducing access for under 18 year olds, how about tightening up the enforcement and effectiveness of current laws instead of punishing other groups?
3.3 It will be hard to enforce
The last suggestion to raise the alcohol purchase age preserved the the parental supervision exemption and introduced a new one; drinking with your marriage or civil union partner if they were over 20 was allowed. A similar exemption could introduce a whole raft of problems. How will it be checked? Moreover, it is possible that some 18 and 19 year olds will marry simply to be able to drink alcohol. Furthermore, the first exemption of parental supervision (ie. raising the purchase age and not making a true 'drinking age') is likely to result in more under 18 years olds being able to legally drink than 18 and 19 year olds. This is because technically over 18 year olds no longer have a legal guardian and moreover a lot have moved away from their parents and started a job or tertiary education. Do we really want under 18 year olds who are drinking responsibly with their parents to suddenly find, as they grow up and become independent, that for the next two years they can no longer legally drink? These two exemptions will make the law very hard to enforce.
3.4 Conclusion
The whole purpose of raising the alcohol purchase age is to make it harder for under 18 year olds (and 18 and 19 years) to access alcohol. But considering current under-age trends, with 62% of alcohol coming from parents, 51% of police cases having the last drink at home, and 9% of teenagers illegally purchasing alcohol, how is simply raising the alcohol purchase age, a law that will be even harder to enforce, going to actually get at the root causes and have any positive effect? Access is already poorly enforced and is not the core problem.
4. Why raising the drinking age is counter productive
4.1 Problem drinking will become the norm
Raising the alcohol purchase age will make problem drinking the norm for two reasons. One, those who are already acting in a disorderly and illegal fashion are the most likely to be breaking the new law; it will be those who drink irresponsibly who will be left. Secondly, the very nature of raising the purchase age will encourage more drinkers to drink in a ever more irresponsible and uncontrollable manner. As Parliament's own ALAC pointed out in their submission "It is more likely that increasing the minimum legal purchase age and not tightening the approach to the sale and supply of alcohol will have a negative influence by...causing young drinkers to go "underground"... [and] encouraging more rapid binge drinking for "fear of being caught" reasons".[3] By reducing the number of responsible drinkers and by increasing the number of irresponsible drinkers, raising the alcohol purchase age will make problem drinking the norm.
4.2 It will bring the law into disrepute
A raised alcohol purchase age will not be taken seriously by many and will bring the law into disrepute for four main reasons. One, many will consider it far too excessive. Two, as already mentioned, the law is targeting a different group from the one it affects which seems woefully unfair and inconsistent the natural rule of law. Thirdly, the fact that the drinking age is being raised to get at the 'de facto' drinking age, shows that the current laws are not being sufficiently enforced; it is admitting a failure of enforcement of law and not dealing with it. Fourthly, and most notably, it is downright absurd for 18 year olds to be able to get married, to vote, to smoke, to enter into a binding contract, to die for their country, and even to legally engage in and to offer prostitution. To in short, be mature and responsible enough to make any decision and be considered a full adult, save when it comes to the purchase and consumption of alcohol (without parental supervision). By bringing the law into disrepute in all these ways, and by separating a group from society, raising the purchase age goes against its very principals of reducing harm and keeping law and order, as members of society become more isolated, bitter, and disrespectful of the law, and the law itself loses creditability.
4.3 Even if 'successful' it will simply divert the problem
Even if raising the purchase age somehow worked and under 18 and under 20 year olds were somehow unable to access alcohol, it will simply divert the problem. We have a social problem and not access problem, and unless something is done to change attitudes then the problem will still be present at 20, 21, and even at 30. The statistics clearly show this is not a problem unique to, or even dominate, in teenagers. Fundamentally, it’s not the drinking, it’s how we are drinking!
4.4 Conclusion
Raising the alcohol purchase age is not merely ineffective, it is counter productive; it will not only fail to solve the problems, it will perpetuate them. By making problem drinking the norm, by bringing the law into disrepute, and by diverting a serious social problem that needs to be thoroughly dealt with at its roots, raising the purchase age would be a major step backwards.
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[1] Alcohol Advisory Council of New Zealand, 'ALAC Alcohol Monitor - Adults & Youth 2007-08 Drinking Behaviours Report', published 5 March 2009, http://www.alac.org.nz/DBTextworks/PDF/ALACMonitor2007-08.pdf (accessed August 2009).
[2] New Zealand Legislation, 'New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990: Public Act 1990 No 109', http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/096be8ed8009cd79.pdf (accessed August 2009).
[3] Alcohol Advisory Council of New Zealand, 'SUBMISSION TO THE LAW AND ORDER SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SALE OF LIQUOR (YOUTH HARM REDUCTION) AMENDMENT BILL', http://www.alac.org.nz/InpowerFiles/Policies/Document.Document.7614.59a910ed-e082-4543-a0a5-4519bca2cfa3.pdf (accessed August 2009).
[4] The New Zealand Herald, 'Drinking age back on MPs' agenda', http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10550917 (accessed August 2009).
runner Comment 4.1
7:05am, 14 August 2009
1I agree with your report Andreas.
I believe there are many reasons why we ought to keep the age of purchase at 18.
1) First and foremost, I was 17 years when the age was dropped and I purchased alcohol as soon as I turned 18... so I'd be a hypocrite to support raising it back.
2) Secondly, it will divert the problem ... the reason why alcohol abuse is on the rise is because of societies attitude as a whole, it has never been about the young drinkers. The problem is spread across all ages. I guarantee you if they kept it at age 20 we'd have many of the same problems we have now. And as you pointed out, it is very easy to acquire alcohol as a minor. That was even when the limit was 20.
3) Thirdly, this is just another case of spoiling something for the majority. Why should others suffer because a small group are getting a bad reputation. Media has a good way of exaggerating the binge culture, it is nowhere near as bad as some people make it out to be. Many 18-20 year olds are indeed responsible drinkers, more so than not. Deal with those people separately. As an 18 year old who can vote, have sex, drive, fight for their country, surely they can have a drink too. It is discrimination as 18 year olds are legally adults.
4) Fourthly, take a look at this :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age ... you will find that over 70% of all countries have the same age limit as we do. Australia and Great Britain also have a purchase age set at 18. USA and Canada are two countries that have a higher age, and I don't think they are on their way to solving their problems either.
5) Rules are not being enforced - very true. All the time you read about the covert operations run by the police to ascertain those with liquor licences are selling the law ... and the prosecutions that occur. Many times you'll find that these licencees will happily sell to a minor without checking ID, thus blatantly defying the law.
6) Finally, it has already been debated recently in Parliament. And it was rejected in its second reading. 72-49. Don't expect this National government to have a slight change in stance. More of their caucus supported keeping the age at 18.
The level of alcohol-related harm requires something to be done. But by discrimination against certain groups whilst omitting others is not the way. The way to do it is deal with those who misbehave and leave the law obiders be.
Kosta.Tabakakis Comment 5
3:32am, 16 August 2009
2A number of interesting points have been made here, backed by comprehensive and convincing arguments. In all honesty, the NZ Government needs to modify the existing approach to minimising alcohol-related harm. The reality is such that our liquor licensing laws are far too liberal. Furthermore, due to a lack of resources, too many on-site licensees are getting away with breaches of the Sale of Liquor Act 1989.
Supply controls, demand reduction and harm minimisation strategies need to continue, but if we really want to reduce alcohol-related harm in NZ, we need to change the drinking CULTURE and the way to do this is through EDUCATION.
Making it compulsory for people to have a liquor purchasing license is not a viable option. The Police are already stretched as it is in NZ.
Now, with respect to the costs of alcohol related harm to NZ Society both the BERL (2009) report and Crampton & Burgess (2009) report raise some valid points. However, the critical point here is that only a small percentage of the money collected through alcohol excise taxes is put towards the costs of alcohol related harm. This has to change.
clair Comment 6
9:44pm, 5 September 2009
1Yes, the damage done under the influence of alcohol is so bad the law must be changed.
One problem is that people with drinking problems have an addiction / dependence on a LEGAL substance you can buy CHEAPLY, 24/ 7. I suggest that reducing the availability of alcohol, and controlling the prices will help to REDUCE DAMAGE done by drunk individuals.
However, TREATMENT of people who have alcohol abuse issues and/or offences is necessary to bring about any real changes. It's not the alcohol alone, it's how some people drink. Unfortunately, heavy drinkers and alcoholics are reluctant to stop drinking (understandably) and can be in denial about their drinking - until something tragic happens and they hit rock-bottom. Even then they may relapse many times before stopping drinking. A greater government emphasis on treatment / intervention is what is required. Currently people get put in police cells to sober up - and then what? After the hangover wears off they start drinking again. People need to be taught about addiction, and how to recover, and their fellow addicts are the best people to do this, in treatment facilities. They need support from others in recovery. Treatment facilities are currently being reduced! While alcohol related damage is rising. There is a lot of shame associated with alcohol abuse, but slowly this is reducing. For example a number of celebrities, sports stars and other public figures are open about their battles with addiction. If there were more treatment / reduction options, and people who committed alcohol related offences were 'sentenced' to attend them, then many more people, esp more young people would be doing alcohol treatment and this would become more accepted and respected in society. Those in treatment programs would be able to have a positive influence on others in the community.
carolh Comment 7
8:31am, 25 September 2009
2I think there are a number of other ways to tackle this. In my local area, all of the cafes are shut in the evening and it's only restaurants or bars that are open. However, if you go to European countries where drinking isn't a problem, there will be cafes and icecream parlours open until late at night where the majority of people who are out aren't drinking alcohol. We should be trying to encourage this kind of activity more.
In the UK, Councils can introduce areas which I think are called cumulative impact zones. This means that the Council can restrict the number of licences - particularly for bars, and will instead encourage more places that serve food. This aims to encourage less of a drinking to get drunk attitude.
I don't think that lowering the age that people can drink is the key issue - if 16 year olds are getting booze anyway, the current age limit obviously isn't working as parents or other adults are either buying them booze or selling it to them. We need more education aimed at parents/adults to stop them doing this.
Insomniac Comment 8
6:59pm, 14 October 2009
0The truth about alcohol and drugs in NZ a My view as a 20yr old in this country and an occasional binge drinker myself is that the DARE program is unsuccessful and a waste of money. even though they do it at early age 11 there is already a culture of its ok 2 get drunk (not helped by older siblings/slash cousins). This AntiAdvertising for a risk adolescent promotes them to try the drugs and get drunk. We need to look at parenting as a whole in this country and really invest in good parenting. i also read the comment about teens and early cannabis use. Well parents your kids are more likely to try cannabis before getting drunk from my own experience i admit i tried it first in Form 2, from another 12yr old even though i though i was mature at the time i wasn't doing it for curiosity and making friends. I moved away from that town that year and again cannabis (light user) helped find a group of friends.
Thats when i started binge drinking which is also seen as popular in young teens and i binge drinked once a week from then on. I maintain that parenting is the ultimate solution for most future problems.
Insomniac Comment 9
7:18pm, 14 October 2009
1If anyone was serious about teenage drinking i think we need to address the sporting community. Its a joke when they hammer league rugby and cricket players for there drinking at the top level. When anyone who has played these sports tell you they started real young. I currently have a friend who is awesome at rugby plays 3 yrs above his grade and regularly gets player of the day. Not even 16 and his club is serving up handles left right and center FREE (shouts) for him. Its this hipocrisy in our laws and culture that are causing issues among teens.
Also i'll add my two cents on BZP and the jim anderton failure to protect his people. Me and approximately 15 others i know never touched ecstasy, we never had the inclination because we had party pills. Now we have all done "E" im not frequenting it but a hell of alot of others are.
Cannabis prohibition is the United Nations biggest failure and i'd rather have high citizens that are harmless than harmful drunks.
